"The wolf salute, like the Hitler salute, stands for violence"
ntv.de: Mr. Sido, Turkish football national player Merih Demiral celebrated with the so-called Wolfsgruß after winning the EM-Quarterfinal against Austria on Tuesday night. Fans also showed this gesture during Turkey games. Why is that problematic?
Kamal Sido: This gesture is associated with an ultra-nationalistic movement called the Grey Wolves. They stand for a racist, fascist, and anti-Semitic ideology. The Grey Wolves believe that Turks are superior beings. They consider anyone perceived as an enemy of Turkishness, such as Alevites, Armenians, Jews, Greeks, or Kurds, as their target.
The Grey Wolves are one of the largest right-wing extremist groups in Germany. What do they want?
The official policy of the movement is the establishment of a pan-Turkic empire, extending from China to Vienna. This empire would mean expulsion and genocide against Armenians, Kurds, or Greeks. The ideology of the Grey Wolves is similar to that of the Islamic State or the German Reich of National Socialists - without equating one to the other. But it's about credibility: When we tell children and youth in Germany why the Nazis were bad, we must also deal with Turkish nationalists, right-wing extremists, and Islamists.
However, right-wing extremists in Turkey have been established for a long time and have been officially part of the government since 2018, with their political arm, the Nationalist Movement Party (MHP), alongside Recep Tayyip Erdogan's AKP.
Yes, that's why little is happening against the Grey Wolves. They are officially part of NATO. Therefore, it is also very dangerous to express criticism. I, from the "Society for Threatened Peoples," am the voice of those who have none. We criticize to inform.
At some point, Turkish nationalism merged with Islamism, even before Erdogan became President. The group has always been violent.
Against whom is the violence directed?
Initially, the Armenians were targeted, then the Jews, then the Kurds. The Grey Wolves have been involved in massacres, pogroms, and attacks on non-Turkish and non-Muslim-Sunni ethnic groups and minorities in the past decades, both in Turkey and outside Turkey.
For example?
In 1993, during the Sivas Massacre in the central Anatolian city of Sivas, 33 Alevites - a religious minority in the predominantly Sunni Turkey - were burned alive. The attackers displayed the Wolfsgruß. That was 30 years ago. Demiral's displaying the Wolfsgruß on the anniversary of this massacre is an absolute scandal.
Similarly, the greeting in 2007 at the murder scene of Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink, who fought for recognition of the Armenian Genocide, was shown by the perpetrators, their supporters, and sympathizers. The Gray Wolves deny the Armenian Genocide from 1915 to 1923.
Why are the index finger and pinky raised like ears and the other fingers pressed to form a sort of snout on the thumb?
The Wolf salute most likely originates from legends about the formation of the Turkish nation, where a wolf was supposed to have played a role. However, this salute has been misused and instrumentalized. Just like other human-hating symbols under which many people were massacred, such as the swastika. One must show compassion and understanding towards the victims and should not use such gestures and symbols. Above all, not in football and live on TV.
Who and how is Demiral's gesture in the stadium particularly harmful?
First and foremost, the victims of the Gray Wolves. For example, the Alevites in Turkey, who feel insulted by it and have associations with pogroms and genocide. That's about 20 million people, Turkish citizens. But it also harms many people in Turkey who just want to live normal lives. In addition, football fans, the Turkish national team, and football in general. Football is about understanding among peoples and not about hate and war.
Demiral said that his way of celebrating had nothing to do with his "Turkish identity" and there was "no hidden message."
I have no understanding for that. That's just not the case. Every Turk, even an illiterate one, knows which movement this refers to. The whole thing is such a big issue in the country, Demiral knows exactly what it's about. Otherwise, one would have to believe that AfD politicians in court when they say they don't know what SA slogans are.
Is every user of this salute a Turkish right-wing extremist?
Yes. The Wolf salute stands for violence - without relativizing the Holocaust in any way. If Demiral condemned the Armenian Genocide and recognized the rights of the Kurds, he wouldn't have shown the salute.
The Constitutional Protection Association estimates that there are approximately 12,100 people in Germany who can be assigned to the Gray Wolves and their ideology.
That's the core of the movement, but there are clearly more. The Gray Wolves are a threat to coexistence in Germany, as many Alevites, Armenians, Kurds, and Greeks in the country cannot feel safe with them.
Already in 2020, the German Bundestag demanded a ban.
I am against bans. We need to talk a lot about this topic to enlighten the youth in Germany and Turkey. It's also about understanding, that one knows what it's about and what's behind it. But one should not support or finance the group. A lot could be done if the Interior Ministry did not finance associations with connections to the Gray Wolves and criticized and clarified instead.
Bundesinternal Minister Nancy Faeser reacted emotionally to the Wolfs Gruß and said: "The symbols of Turkish right-wing extremists have no place in our stadiums. Using the Football European Championship as a platform for racism is completely unacceptable."
That sounds nice, but I don't give it much weight. Unfortunately, Mrs. Faeser coordinates many things with the Turkish Interior Ministry and neglects the rights of the Kurds. And the German Foreign Office is silent on human rights violations and war crimes of Turkey, such as in my hometown Afrin.
The UEFA has initiated an investigative procedure against Demiral for inappropriate behavior. Are you expecting a penalty?
That's a good step, but I have little hope that something will happen.
The Albanian national player Mirlind Daku was suspended by UEFA for two games in the group stage due to nationalist chants, in which he is said to have called for the killing of Serbians and Macedonians over a megaphone.
However, one must distinguish. Geopolitics plays a role here, Turkey uses the geographical location of the country and has important allies in the upper echelons in sport and politics.
Are you expecting a reaction from the Turkish national team?
Not at the moment. But if the media report a lot and more clarification takes place and politics in Germany enters into an open and honest dialogue, not with this middle European-German politeness, it could lead to a long-term change.
Last year, a photo appeared online showing the former German national player Mesut Özil with a tattoo of the Grey Wolves on his chest.
Özil could be a role model for young people if he advocated for understanding among peoples. But for that, he would have to behave differently. Özil has never said anything about the photo or apologized, so one must assume that he is a member of the Grey Wolves.
Were you surprised by the photo?
No, not at all, in fact Özil is good friends with Erdogan. I believe that the ideology of the Grey Wolves is deeply rooted in the Turkish state. In Turkey, there is hardly any clarification and processing taking place.
Some German-Turks are now facing the ambivalence dilemma, that they want to celebrate and sing with the Turkish national team, but do not want to support right-wing extremists.
They should celebrate and sing. From my point of view, the national anthem, which is also not problem-free, should also be sung. But whoever in Germany shows understanding for the Grey Wolves and at the same time criticizes the AfD, loses their credibility.
With Kamal Sido spoke David Bedürftig
- Despite Mesut Özil's association with right-wing extremist symbols through a tattoo of the Grey Wolves on his chest, he has the potential to be a role model for young people by advocating for understanding among peoples.
- The Grey Wolves, a right-wing extremist group that believes in the establishment of a pan-Turkic empire and has been involved in massacres, pogroms, and attacks against non-Turkish and non-Muslim-Sunni ethnic groups, have been officially part of the Turkish government since 2018, with their political arm, the Nationalist Movement Party (MHP), alongside Recep Tayyip Erdogan's AKP.
- During the European Football Championship 2024, if right-wing extremist symbols or gestures like the Wolf salute are displayed by players like Merih Demiral, it will harm the victims of the Grey Wolves, football fans, the Turkish national team, and football in general, as football should be about understanding among peoples and not about hate and war.
