"We certainly didn't do everything right"

A turbulent year is coming to an end for the coalition government. "But the bottom line is that we did more right than wrong," says Christian Lindner. ntv.de spoke to the Finance Minister about disputes in the coalition, his relationship with Robert Habeck and the desire of some FDP members to leave the FDP.

ntv.de: Mr. Lindner, we are entering a highly topical year-end: Your friend and colleague Friedrich Merz has said that the Christmas tree is part of Germany's dominant culture. Olaf Scholz, on the other hand, does not have a Christmas tree. What do you think? Are you team Merz or team Scholz?

Christian Lindner: For me, the Christmas tree is not a political issue, but a personal one. We didn't each have a Christmas tree, but we did this year. We decorated it together before Christmas Eve and it was a lovely family occasion.

Today we also want to look back on the year. It was a difficult year. War in Europe, the Hamas massacre and the Gaza war, and finally the Federal Constitutional Court's ruling on the budget. What has nevertheless given you hope?

Our society is facing up to its challenges together. This stability is a valuable asset that we must preserve. We don't have the political enmity that characterizes and sometimes paralyzes the USA, for example. That is why I advise against voting for protest parties and populists. I am convinced that, without radicalism, we have every chance of achieving a turnaround for Germany. That is the task for 2024.

Polls have long shown that the traffic light party no longer has its own majority. As a free democrat, personal responsibility is particularly important to you. What have you done wrong?

The mood is depressed by the multiple crises. You mentioned the international situation. Economically, we are dealing with recession and inflation, we see the problems of high levels of migration. Of course, all of this is linked to the respective government. We certainly haven't done everything right this year. But the bottom line is that we have done more right than wrong.

Can you name one point where you say we could have done better?

I would go back to the turn of the year 2021/2022, because we had a lot to do this year with the decisions we made back then. With the knowledge of the Constitutional Court's interpretation of the debt brake in the Basic Law, we would certainly not have transferred the unused credit authorizations to the climate fund. However, the ruling from Karlsruhe has created legal clarity, which I have now used to clear the air.

You have now agreed on a budget for 2024. The vast majority of Germans are unhappy with the result. How do things look for you?

The package is impressive. We are providing citizens with 15 billion euros in relief at the start of the year. For some families, that's several hundred euros more net. For the manufacturing industry, the electricity tax will be reduced by over 3 billion euros. This is an important contribution to competitiveness. We are continuing to use the debt brake as a brake on inflation and inflation is falling. We are investing at record levels in infrastructure, technology and education. Of course, nobody likes to cut anything. But the burden is really bearable with the reduction of 3 billion euros in subsidies compared to the positive priorities.

Nevertheless, approval is muted. The fact that Agriculture Minister Cem Özdemir is now strongly criticizing his own government's decisions is also not very helpful in terms of public image.

The public reaction is characterized by a list of cuts. I am sure that many people do not know that they will not be burdened next year, but will be relieved on balance. That's why I want to put the package into context.

Are you in favor of reducing the subsidy for agricultural diesel or not?

I don't understand the reason for the question.

You agreed with Olaf Scholz and Robert Habeck to abolish the subsidy for agricultural diesel, but then the farmers protested, Cem Özdemir objected and you said: "We can talk about anything. That at least caused us some confusion.

Because you didn't quote me correctly.

Then you now have the opportunity to set the record straight.

I said: I take it seriously when Mr. Özdemir and the FDP parliamentary group express concerns. After all, we are a democracy where three members of government do not decide for everyone. But anyone who does not want a measure must propose a concrete alternative.

The fact that the budget dispute and the agreement are causing confusion and resentment is nothing new. In the summer, we saw the dispute over the heating law, then the dispute over the basic child insurance. Why can't you come to an agreement behind the scenes and then defend the result together?

I would prefer that. In the case of the Heating Act, it was the wish of our coalition partners to conduct the debate in parliament. I have already said several times that I would not support such a procedure a second time. You'll have to ask others about basic child protection. The same goes for the consolidation package.

But the discussions had already taken place beforehand, in the cabinet, within the government.

I can't speak for others.

Many people see the FDP as the party that causes the most controversy. Is controversy perhaps also important for the FDP? So that you remain visible to your voters and are still perceived in the alliance with the Greens and SPD?

I wouldn't subscribe to the theory that it is predominantly the FDP that is causing controversy. Some people may get this impression because one of our two left-wing coalition partners usually discusses with the FDP. This is due to our role, because we are the centrist party in the coalition. You mentioned Mr. Özdemir. You could also add Mr. Mützenich, who has just called for the debt brake to be suspended for the coming year. Or the Greens, who recently wanted to unravel the package on the reorganization of migration. It must be in our common interest to put an end to the excessive demands of illegal migration with a new realpolitik.

After two years of coalition, are the Greens more of an opponent or a partner for you?

The Greens are currently a coalition partner and at the same time a party-political competitor - unlike the CDU/CSU, which is currently only a party-political competitor.

Is there something you particularly appreciate about Robert Habeck?

Why are you asking about Robert Habeck in particular?

Because, together with you and Chancellor Olaf Scholz, the Minister of Economic Affairs is the face of the traffic light coalition - and Habeck would probably also have liked to be Finance Minister.

Robert Habeck is a colleague with strong convictions and a willingness to compromise.

There will be federal elections in two years at the latest. Would you rather be finance minister in the Friedrich Merz cabinet than finance minister in the Olaf Scholz cabinet?

This question looks too far into the future. If you're talking about fiscal policy, the SPD is campaigning for tax increases and more debt. That is exactly what we are preventing in the Scholz government. On the other hand, the CDU is also flirting with tax increases and some state premiers would like to get rid of the debt brake because it demands uncomfortable decisions. In view of these choices, I can only say that the FDP will go into the next election as an independent party.

In your book "Schattenjahre" (Shadow Years), you wrote that the FDP was only perceived as an opposing party in the black-yellow coalition from 2009 to 2013 - resulting in a traumatic election defeat. Is this fate threatening again?

No, the FDP is a pro-party, as our government actions show. We are in favor of the debt brake, we are in favor of tax relief. We are in favor of a new realpolitik in the area of asylum and migration. We are in favor of reducing bureaucracy and speeding up planning and approval processes. We are in favour of the Startchancen programme in education policy, which will mobilize 20 billion euros in federal and state funding for schools over the next ten years. We are in favor of a new climate protection law that will be more market-based than the costly and planned economy approach of the Groko...

You are in favor of reforming the debt brake. Is that an economic conviction or a concession to the Greens and Social Democrats?

No, I am not in favor of reforming the debt brake. We only agreed in the 2021 coalition agreement that we would look at modernizing one technical detail.

That is, after all, the economic component.

There is a review here, the outcome of which is open. Independent experts will discuss whether and how the forecasts can be improved. In any case, this will not result in greater scope for debt. What would be allowed in the downturn would have to be collected in the upturn.

The FDP is currently holding a member survey on remaining in the traffic light coalition. How will it turn out?

We will have the result at the beginning of January. I have respect for those who are thinking about how the FDP can be strengthened. We share the same goals: We want Germany to become freer, more modern and more digital and remain open to the world. But it is not a good idea to leave the government without a good reason. The FDP is implementing a lot of liberal policies in this coalition. The republic should not be left to a red-green minority government or to chaos. After all, there would not suddenly be new elections and a conservative majority.

The result is not binding. But let's assume that the majority of members will be in favor of a break. Can you ignore that?

I can only react to the result once it is available.

The war in Ukraine is an issue that is preoccupying the whole of Germany. The news is currently unpleasant for Ukraine - the counter-offensive has stalled, Russia is making territorial gains, the US Congress is delaying urgently needed aid worth billions. Shouldn't Germany do more?

Germany stands by Ukraine's side. After all, the European order of peace and freedom is being defended there. We are supplying weapons systems, providing financial aid and offering protection to many people in Germany. We are already the second largest supporter worldwide. Germany finances a good half of all aid from Europe. At present, it is not foreseeable that more needs to be done. But in any case, we must push for better burden-sharing. It is not acceptable for others to do less because Germany is doing more.

It seems clear to large sections of the SPD: If more needs to be done for Ukraine, then the debt brake will be suspended...

For some, suspending the debt brake now seems to have become an end in itself. Since 2021, we have reduced the debt ratio from 69 percent to a good 64 percent in the coming year. Despite all the crisis aid and support for Ukraine. This fiscal turnaround must be continued. We are still a long way from the 60 percent debt ratio that the European fiscal rules stipulate. We need this buffer so that we have the full ability to react in the event of crises such as the pandemic.

What are your political plans for the new year?

The German government has adopted a consolidation package for the budget. Now we need a stimulus package for our economy. We cannot and must not be satisfied with the current growth figures. That's why we need to take further decisive steps to reduce bureaucracy and make it a reality for companies. We must activate all skilled workers and employees on the labor market. And it would be helpful if the CDU/CSU ended the delay to the Growth Opportunities Act at the beginning of the year. SMEs and industry can now make good use of the tax incentives for investment, construction activity and research projects. The CDU should not prevent this.

And what is your personal resolution?

I would like to reduce the number of showdown night meetings again. Politics is a long-distance run.

Volker Petersen and Jan Gänger spoke to Christian Lindner