For the time being, political strategist James Carville finds himself aligned with the Cheneys.
It was a contentious issue when Carville, known for his uncensored Louisiana style of speech, first raised it, well before the CNN presidential debate that sparked widespread concern and eventually led Biden to change his stance.
Biden's exit, according to Carville, was somewhat akin to having an infected tooth extracted. While it wasn't enjoyable in the moment, he noted that one feels better afterwards.
A new CNN documentary, titled "Carville: Winning is Everything, Stupid," delves into Carville's early efforts to push Biden out of the race and connects it to his extensive career. The documentary also discusses his notable bipartisan relationship with Mary Matalin, a prominent strategist for former President George H.W. Bush's reelection campaign in 1992. Matalin ultimately worked for Bill Clinton's campaign, which led to friction in their relationship, as depicted in the film.
Watch "Carville: Winning is Everything, Stupid" on Saturday at 7 p.m. ET on CNN.
When I spoke with Carville in New York not long ago, it was following Cheney and his daughter Liz, the former Wyoming representative, both endorsing Vice President Kamala Harris in this year's election.
I asked Carville about the strange feeling of aligning with former adversaries and the evolution of the Democratic Party that he's witnessed. Selected excerpts from our conversation, edited for clarity, are provided below:
The country seems to be in a Carville-Matalin dynamic with women favoring Harris and men supporting Trump
WOLF:You're in this well-known bipartisan relationship. One of the storylines of this current campaign is a majority of women leaning toward Harris in recent polls, while a majority of men are gravitating towards former President Trump. So, there must be a lot of individuals in relationships similar to yours, wouldn't you agree?
CARVILLE: Typically, when people meet, they fall in love... Frequently, they're in the same industry. When we got married, someone smartly stated: If one of them had married a tree surgeon from Idaho, that would have been quite extraordinary. Therefore, if you work in television, you're more likely to meet colleagues from MSNBC or CBS than you are a roofer.
We simply happen to be a more prominent example of this phenomenon.
Show respect to others
WOLF:At the Democratic National Convention, there was a unified message from major speakers — they clearly had talking points — to avoid offending the opposing side. Perhaps it's the "politics of joy" concept. Don't offend your neighbors, engage with them. Is this a viable strategy? Engaging with individuals from the opposing side?
CARVILLE: It's slightly humorous. Colin Allred, the current Democratic Senate nominee in Texas, approached me at the Dallas Democrats during his Congressional campaign, seeking advice.
I said, "Just be nice to people."
I don't refer to it as the "politics of joy," but rather, it seems that in politics, kindness has become a rarity. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but I believe there is some value in it.
WOLF:But sometimes the things you say — let's refrain from using harsh language, for instance — you were actively trying to get Biden out of the race in the film.
CARVILLE: I wasn't hostile towards him. I wasn't impolite to him. I simply believed that he was too old.
I wasn't hostile. Some may argue that Trump is just excessively rude. However, in terms of President Biden, I said, "Look, if he becomes the nominee, the age factor will work against him; I don't think he's a powerful general election candidate."
However, opinions vary, and they can be expressed in various ways. I believe that sometimes, in public, people could use a little more politeness, especially in a nation with a short temper. Maybe some of it has to do with politics, or perhaps it's connected to the pandemic; I can't say for sure.
Linked with the Cheneys
WOLF:There's a segment in the film where you reflect on the Bush administration, with Mary working for Cheney, and you appear to be far apart. Today, both Dick Cheney and Liz Cheney, his daughter, are backing Harris. Is this an unexpected full-circle moment? Or have you pondered over it?
CARVILLE: I always appreciated Vice President Cheney. During Christmas, we'd visit Wyoming because Mary would staff him, despite the fact that I had little political alignment with him. I've always found Cheney to be an engaging conversationalist.
And I've always admired Liz. I'd say she was like Mary's younger sibling in a way. Mary is a few years older than Liz. So we'd regularly attend events in Washington, in the manner that senior staff members and spouses do.
From my perspective, Liz's earlier employment with Cheney has lost some of its sting. I've always been proud of her accomplishments.
WOLF: But do you feel like you're spinning, in an odd cyclical manner, aligning yourself with the Cheneys in a strange sense?
CARVILLE: I think the United States is in a precarious state, much like during World War II where we teamed up with the Soviets. In times of war, I collaborate closely with several old Quayle/Bush associates – individuals like Bill Kristol, members of the Bulwark group, Tim Miller, Charlie Sykes, and Steve Schmidt, among others. I spoke with Stuart Stevens earlier today, and I need to return his call.
During times of conflict, we do not waste time questioning our alliances. Our main goal is to emerge victorious, and then we can return to our squabbles. However, with the current political landscape, we do not have that luxury just yet.
Has the political map shifted for Democrats?
WOLF: At one point in the film, you discuss working on campaigns in 1959. I've been thinking about how dramatically the political map has evolved since then. You worked for Bill Clinton, who managed to secure both Arkansas and Louisiana on multiple occasions, which is beyond reach for Democrats today. Has the party evolved as well, and have you adjusted your stance to align with these changes?
CARVILLE: It's a fascinating concept. My political leanings were primarily shaped by racial considerations, which is rather unusual for someone with my background. While the demographic makeup of the party has shifted – becoming less working-class and more educated – the core principles of being a Democrat have remained relatively unchanged.
I have sometimes criticized the educated class and their approach, but I believe that the inclusivity of the Democrats is one of its strengths. I hope to be part of a political party that can curb some of the more extreme consequences of capitalism, which can be quite damaging to the average individual.
Although the economy might appear favorable to some, I feel that it is essential to take steps to soften its rougher edges. This can enable success for some, while shielding others from its more detrimental impacts.
Assessing polls
WOLF: Harris is leading in certain national polls ... What's your take on the current political climate?
CARVILLE: I have learned over the course of many years in politics that there is always a poll question that can be manipulated to present whatever message one desires, given enough effort. I can present you with a poll that has Harris in the lead, as well as one that shows Trump in front. While I don't blame those who manipulate polls for survival reasons, it is a practice I am reluctant to engage in.
There is something known as statistical noise, which is inherent in all polls. I cannot deny that I occasionally glance at polls, but I try not to give them much thought unless there is a consistent and significant trend.
Crafting Harris' winning message
WOLF: What thoughts are consuming you day and night, for the following 40 days before the election?
CARVILLE: I am considering how Harris can effectively position herself to establish a clear contrast. Here's an idea I've been mulling over –
People frequently ask, "Is it indeed 'the economy, stupid'?" While some debate whether inflation or general contentment with the economy is the primary concern, Harris has a solid foundation for delivering a message, given Trump's assertion that "You've got nothing to lose – our country is in ruins, and we must try something different."
While most people are not as pessimistic as Trump portrays, they do not believe that they have truly "nothing to lose." They may attempt to improve their financial situation, if only in small increments, rather than gambling on uncertainty.
By framing the election in this way, Harris does not have to convince voters that the economy is doing well, but instead, she can emphasize that Trump's "you have nothing to lose" message does not resonate with the majority.
Feeling optimistic about the election?
WOLF: Given the movie's narrative of urging Biden to withdraw from the race, we're now halfway through the Harris campaign and just a month away from Election Day. Are you feeling confident about the outcome?
CARVILLE: It's safe to say that I am more optimistic than before. Just as removing an infected tooth can make a significant improvement in one's condition, even if there is no immediate relief or improvement, I feel better knowing that Biden is out of the race.
Sure thing, mate. Haven't got much else to talk about, so let's dive into politics, eh?
Boosting folks' faith in politics
WOLF: What else can you share about the film?
CARVILLE: The whole bloke of politics has turned into a right dirty business, not just us lot who run campaigns or back candidates. It's the ones in the government, NGOs, or folks writing stories about it on the six o'clock news.
I reckon this flick might help people change their minds about it, cos if all we do is tell 'em politics is a total disaster with no decent people in it, who on earth's gonna want to get involved, right? They've had enough of the gossip...
WOLF: So, what would you tell a recent grad about politics then? Why should they join the game?
CARVILLE: I hope they watch the movie and think, "Bloody hell, these chaps looked like they were havin' a laff. They weren't wearing a bloody hair shirt the whole time. They looked like they were having a ball, patting each other on the back." And let's hope they think, "They ain't that bad, right? I'd give it a go then."
There's been way too much bizarre stuff going on in politics, the political scene, the politicians themselves. I'd love for this film to make folks rethink all that.
In the documentary "Carville: Winning is Everything, Stupid," Carville's early efforts to push Biden out of the race are discussed and connected to his extensive career. Carville noted that engaging with individuals from the opposing side can have some value in politics, despite his active attempts to get Biden out of the race earlier.
