Guttenberg on the church, criticism and singing bowls

Critical, but benevolent. Praying with pleasure, but also experiences with singing bowls and meditation are discussed: Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg has made a film that leaves the viewer relaxed and thoughtful after watching it. Guttenberg searches for answers and points out power relations and abuses in Germany's churches. Among other things, he meets a victim of abuse who recounts his shocking experiences, and he talks to a reformer who wants to shake the foundations of the Catholic Church. He also learns astonishing things about the "Vatican system" from an insider and a financial expert reveals how rich the churches in Germany still are. You can find out how happy he is that his summary of the church is positive in the end in our interview with him.

ntv.de: Do we need religion?

Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg: I believe that people always need religion. No yoga mat can replace that. It's a nice extra, but people still have so many unanswered questions in life, especially when it comes to death. We probably won't get by without religion.

Do we only ever go to church for the special moments in our lives? Birth and baptism, marriage, then death and burial. If things go well, some still go to church at Easter and Christmas for the communal experience ...

I agree with you that the appeal of church has diminished enormously. Church has become an event in many moments, as you mention. Although, of course, I would never describe a funeral as an event. But a church funeral is important to most people. That shows how alienated the relationship between people and the church is today. However, the communal experience is a very important point, as we are driven to be individualistic in all other areas of life today. Going to church should not be a burden and, above all, church should not be the place for bad news. A lot of things are coming together now, especially because the church has often been the source of really bad news in recent years. News that makes it seem unfashionable and that sometimes associates it with the worst abysses. There's a bit of homework to catch up on. But the core message that the church is spreading is still an extremely comforting one. One that can give people support. That is important.

When does faith help you?

It does almost every day. But I confess that I don't go to church every Sunday, and: I don't even have a piercingly guilty conscience about it (laughs). Faith is something that always provides me with a foundation in life. And also the critical examination of my faith, which always goes through ripple valleys. But I think that's good because it's an active debate. I don't always find answers to all the questions that make up our earthly existence. And certainly not to the question of what might happen afterwards - in other forms. I have to be honest: I am someone who not only struggles with the institution of the church, but also occasionally with his faith.

What does that look like, your struggle with faith?

When it comes to the institution, I look very closely at how the earthly representatives of the church behave. How they sometimes run the risk of driving the cart into the wall. The church is walking a narrow path: If you conform too much, you risk diluting the core message, because a dialog is rightly taking place. On the other hand, there is a feeling that everyone is getting caught up in the battles and that Catholics are losing their voice in Rome. The Protestant church is struggling with completely different issues. But people are running away from all of them, leaving the church. It's all about the big issues! For the Catholics, on top of that there are the issues of celibacy and whether women can become priests - which I think is urgently needed! I also wrestle with the issue of church tax, which is viewed critically even in Rome (laughs). However, if you want to change something, you should be part of "the club" and not just try to influence it from the outside. Leaving is therefore not an option for me.

Has it become more difficult to believe in God?

I think that the answers to most questions can be found in the Old and New Testaments. Especially in the New Testament. What is missing, however, is a clever "translation" into our time, and that would be the task of the church as an institution. That is where the focus must be directed again, because a young person cannot find that out for themselves, the world has become too complex and too threatening for that. It used to be the case that when you were struck by great blows of fate and the big issues of the world became more and more overwhelming, you would then look for the path to faith and hopefully find someone to help you mediate. There is a lack of this today: the lack of support for the church is also creating a shortage of clergy, and the few who are available have no time because they have to deal with their own scandals. It's a vicious circle.

Can this wheel turn again?

I think so and I hope so.

So we need a new interpretation, a summary of the Bible ...

There have been and still are attempts. The church is very global, and the problems in Germany differ from those in other countries. It will therefore not be possible to find uniform answers to everything. Elsewhere, it is often easier to convey the message of the church, perhaps because the content is broken down a little. And also because they speak a more understandable language.

Wouldn't it be nicer and easier to focus more on the Ten Commandments?

Yes, definitely, they have universal validity. Unlike laws, commandments don't end at national borders. And it's something that can be a guideline for people of all ages. If you take up this guideline, then you can take the next steps, then you can go into the parables. But a few new translations certainly wouldn't hurt either (laughs).

So, if you stick with it, in the church, then you can allow yourself criticism ...

You're also allowed to do that from outside - the question is whether it helps. But being in the church was also the reason why I allowed myself to make a movie. On the one hand, I don't want to let the church off the hook; on the other, I want to stick to the issues with a certain credibility. A lot of things are in danger of being lost because we only drool over the scandalous stories. With my film, I am primarily concerned with achieving a certain balance when we approach the topic of the church.

I was pleased with your colorful selection of interviewees. What surprised you the most during filming?

My individual interviewees, actually. Of course, I had thought about how to approach them: Use my network as I always have or do something completely different. But the "usual staff" might have been a bit too easy. After all, the church lives from its normal members and also from those who turn away from the church. So I spoke to Gregor Gysi and Günther Jauch, for example - you don't immediately associate them with the church ...

... even though they are also a kind of preacher ...

(laughs) That's true, but they speak in an open and cordial way that makes "Jauch" not Jauch the presenter, but Jauch the Christian. I particularly liked the surprising notes that these conversations brought with them. But who touched me the most was the 19-year-old candidate for the priesthood, this boy who wants to follow such a different path to others of his age. I was impressed by his eloquence, but at the same time so critical. And it also made me a little less worried about the future.

Should the church, should the churches be louder? In the situation the world is currently in?

Here, too, you have to differentiate. There are many who are speaking out. The Christian church has cultural roots in many parts of the world, which has created our culture. It is important to maintain maximum tolerance and remain open to others. However, the church should actually act as a bridge more often.

Meditate or pray?

I often meditate, even without a rosary, that suits me better. People have a longing for spirituality and I welcome it when people try to come down and reflect on themselves. Whether it's on a church pew or on a yoga mat - which is much more comfortable in my eyes (laughs).

The church is viewed so critically, but still has enormous power - how do you explain that?

Apart from the fact that the church is one of the largest employers in the world and that the church has an incredible amount of - sometimes incredibly unfairly distributed - money at its disposal, it is the brand factor that particularly interests me. And yes, I do worry about the church, but I'm not completely worried.

Sabine Oelmann spoke to Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg

The documentary "For God's sake? The Power of the Church in Germany" can be seen on ntv on December 26 at 3.10 pm.