"Experience exists of collective annoyance or agitation"
ntv.de: Mr. Nitzsche, reflecting on the September 1st state election - what feelings prevail? Anxiety or optimism?
Thomas Nitzsche: Mainly uncertainty. There's also optimism. I suspect that there won't be straightforward majority ratios in the Thuringian state parliament after this election either. I still hope that we won't end up with another minority government. That's not ideal in the long run.
How do you interpret the state's atmosphere?
In Jena, it's a bit different. We have different majority ratios here compared to the rest of Thuringia. Yet, there's a sort of collective agitation everywhere. It started with Corona and continued with the Ukraine conflict. Somehow, the fuse has become shorter. The eagerness to consider the opposing party's viewpoint is decreasing. The inclination to listen to and accept contrasting opinions, even when distancing oneself from them, is dwindling.
What could be the reason for this?
I believe it's the intertwining of multiple crises. Corona alone was enough to disrupt the world. The pandemic wasn't even over when the Ukraine conflict started. Many people yearn for a return to normalcy, whatever that may be. But that's missing, and that's why we have this restlessness. Apprehensions about the future are added to that. Now, a party from the right to far-right spectrum is making permanent strides. People often define the AfD as an East German phenomenon, but I think that's just a matter of time. The trend is similar in the old federal states as well.
How menacing do you find Björn Höcke?
Very menacing. From what I've read and heard, he manages a very tight ship. People only get promising posts on county council or state parliament lists if they align with him. It's in no one's interest to allow Mr. Höcke to come close to power.
Is it realistic to think that he could become the Minister-President? All parties reject a coalition with the AfD. Or?
I don't see that happening. But that only applies if no one changes their mind. If what's being said now still applies after the election. It's possible that individual parties won't make it back into the state parliament. Then their votes would be lost, and it might take significantly less than 50 percent of the votes for a majority. I don't see the AfD becoming so powerful that you can't avoid them. But it's not entirely impossible.
Isn't this the dilemma in dealing with the AfD? You want to prevent a government takeover, but if everyone else unites against them, they can claim: We're the only alternative, they're all the same. Do you see a way out?
There is a way out, but no quick solution. I am firmly convinced that all actions under the "Fight against the AfD" banner do not yield the desired results. It targets the wrong issue. The fight against the party even achieves the opposite of what is intended with the best intentions. Instead, it needs a fight against the underlying causes that drive voters to vote for this party. It's relatively simple to organize a large demonstration against the AfD, but that doesn't help. Perhaps you temporarily eliminate the head of the hydra, but that is not the way to defeat it.
Where would you start?
The theme that the AfD has seized is fear. Of anything. I thought the theme was migration. That's a euphemism. Fear of the stranger. It may be unsavory, but that fear is real. There is also fear of social decay. Of losing something one has. Or fear of too much change. These motives, the AfD exploits very effectively.
What can be done about it?
One must reduce the reasons for fear. That's the only solution that works. Fear cannot be argued away from anyone. Instead, one must explain upcoming changes to people in such a way that they do not feel threatened by them. In Jena, the AfD faces much more of a challenge than in the rest of Thuringia. That's partly due to our vigilant civil society. The other reason is that we already have a higher proportion of foreigners. It has become normal to live with people who look different, and that can no longer be so easily manipulated in a populist manner.
Is Jena perhaps an exception in Thuringia regarding refugees?
We took in around 3000 refugees in 2014/15. Behind the scenes, that was a significant challenge, but there was little criticism. The influx then simply seeped into the housing market. Now it's different. There are no more free apartments. The willingness to take in remains, but the options for accommodation are shrinking. Our communal accommodations are still full. If three buses arrived tonight, we wouldn't know where to place the people in Jena either. The admission situation is currently at zero. But that could change again.
How far do you manage to integrate the refugees into work? Was it a mistake to immediately pay the Ukrainians citizen's income?
Here in Jena, migrants enter employment relationships disproportionately. We also know the reverse effect. One begins to calculate, citizen's income, housing benefit, other benefits, and compares it to a potential income. The point can come where one thinks: That's not worth it. Nevertheless, we do not see an immigration into the social system here.
How did you achieve that?
We're not just lacking in qualified workers, but we also have an advantageous environment - numerous clubs that offer language lessons and integration being one example. Companies that are already establishing a global presence in their workforce.
What would it imply for Jena if the AfD became the most powerful faction in the state? Mightn't this also deter potential skilled workers?
(No alteration in the translation, as the question is already in English.)
This is already happening. A prominent AfD presence locally would undeniably be a disadvantageous aspect of the location. For instance, during visits from diplomats, we always eventually bring up this topic. I usually reassure them: It's not like that here. There's no need to worry about moving here with a migrant background. Still, one can sense the distrust from the outside. The university and international corporations notice it, and it always feels like a dark cloud hanging over everything.
During recent political campaigns, there have been numerous aggressive assaults on candidates and officials - even escalating to physical violence. How does this affect you?
When I talk about this with my colleagues in a larger group, I get the sense that more than half have encountered this directly. Personally, I've only received a single threatening email so far. The sender was quite meticulous in concealing their identity. That put me on edge, so we conducted a more thorough investigation. Otherwise, I've yet to face any threats or violence.
What keeps you hopeful?
For instance, the group "Open-Minded Thuringia". Members from diverse backgrounds are involved. They all strive to engage in constructive debates with people in their immediate surroundings. This strategy has proven effective, and in this way, we can still influence people. In Jena, we've additionally launched our own campaign. We've highlighted individuals, like those from the hospital, who we'd greatly miss if they were no longer here. We need these people and we want them here. I believe this type of communication works.
Volker Petersen interviewed Thomas Nitzsche
Despite the concerns regarding the AfD's rise in power, especially in the old federal states, the trend seems to be similar in The Netherlands as well. ( reference to the 'AfD becoming so powerful that you can't avoid them' sentence)
In light of the increasing restlessness and apprehensions about the future in political spheres worldwide, it's essential to promote understanding and cooperation rather than fear and exclusion. (referencing the "Fight against the AfD" banner not yielding the desired results and reducing the reasons for fear as the solution)
